Notes Session 4 – #elephantroom
Unity: Can’t We All Get Along? vs. Discernment: My Way or the Highway
Steven Furtick and James MacDonaldWhat criteria should decide whom a pastor publicly endorses/partners with? When do my associations negate the orthodoxy of my own ministry? Is there ever a time to publicly critique another pastor? Is sincerity enough to draw my endorsement? When does my energy over non-essentials limit and isolate my fruitfulness?
- Driscoll is moderating. Let’s see if he talks more than James :)
- Driscoll: It’s time for a good argument. Let’s have a good fight!
- We’re supposed to talk about issues of unity, Jesus commands that we would be one, Paul prays that Christians would get along, God delights when brothers delight in unity. Younger evangelicals seem to have no stomach for conflict or controversy.
- Where are the lines?
- Who do you listen to and enjoy?
- MacDonald: I don’t listen to a ton of preaching. I’ve listened to guys in this room preach. Chuck Smith and Chuck Swindoll on the radio. Practical, impactful, life-changing. I don’t really listen frequently to anybody.
- Driscoll: Listing names that Furtick listens to. “Osteen and Piper. Its like ‘I’m a meat-eating vegetarian.’ ” How do you do that and does that concern you?
- Furtick: He’s acknowledging that he does not agree with everything all of them say. Furtick is a preaching junkie – I love all kinds of preaching. “All I ever do for fun is watching preaching.” I learned a long time ago to eat the fish and leave the bones. Listening to preachers does not mean these are the ministries I endorse. Exposure to different styles of preaching makes me a better preacher. Makes me a better communicator.
- Furtick is showing honour in a way that is setting the bar. I know that’s big for him.
- MacDonald: “It’s not about what you or I think, it’s about the book God has written.” A lot of people follow you (Furtick) and a lot of people don’t have the capacity to eat the fish and spit out the bones. There is error in the list of people you listen to. Not everyone has the ability to discern so when you list people who, by your admission, have taught with errors, posting the list lacks discernment.
- We are told to discern truth from error. Talking about doctrine, things which are clearly taught in scripture.
- Characteristics of mature believer include being able to weight doctrine and express what we believe and what we don’t believe.
- “I’m concerned that your influence might extend people in to error that you may not support.”
- Driscoll: Would you encourage your staff, your people, your church to be listening to these same teachers?
- Furtick: Teach people to eat different kinds of foods. Certain foods first, other foods second.
- This discussion is focused mostly on the preachers that Steven listens to. Time to broaden the conversation a little bit.
- Furtick: “I’m tired of my generation being known for what we’re against than what we’re for. It makes us look stupid, uninformed, angry and it completely misses the point of us lifting up the name of Jesus. We’re not fighting any big wars to win back the world so we start fighting each other.”
- That was solid.
- MacDonald: As a concept, I agree. Scripture informs me of bewaring false teachers and warn others about false gospels. Scripture itself sets me on fire about truth and error. I don’t see the NT making the “can’t we all get along” point very often.
- Driscoll: Sheep, shepherds love them and wolves love them a different way. Shepherd’s job is to be unloving towards wolves as an expression of love for the sheep.
- Noble: Don’t call people wolves as an attack over methodology.
- Chandler: They are both issues. We have to call out those who are afraid to shoot wolves. We also have to shoot wolves.
- MacDonald: We have to acknowledge that there ARE real wolves, they have podcasts and they are damaging the church.
- Noble: Don’t call people out based on personal preference but based on doctrinal accuracy. There is a time to say “That is wrong” but that’s based on biblical accuracy.
- Platt: Wolf, clearly on doctrinal issue. Deny the trinity, deny the exclusivity of Christ, character of God, sinfulness of man, necessity of faith. Someone denying those things need to be called out. Because of my care for the people I’m pastoring, I’m going to call those people out – whether they’re outside my church or not. Calling out bad theology and bad methodology comes from a place of love for my church.
- Furtick: Telling a story about coming to meet MacDonald and realizing that he was not who he was thought to be. When you love the gospel and love your church and someone starts trying to shoot you, it’s very easy to have a conversation about people we’ve never seen in 3D. When I meet James MacDonald, I love James MacDonald. If I believed what I was told about you, I wouldn’t be in the elephant room. A lot of people told me I shouldn’t come here, shouldn’t sit across the table from Chandler but I did and it was fantastic.
- Furtick is showing that he belongs with the big boys.
- MacDonald: There ARE people who are destructive to the gospel and it is not wrong to name names. Discernment – everyone preaching is not preaching the truth, everyone with a Bible in their hand does not love Jesus. YES to unity, YES to discernment.
- Driscoll: Difference between state borders and national borders. Wars fought over national borders, state borders are distinctions. Listing through different theological issues and asking Furtick and MacDonald to clarify national vs state.
- CANADIAN BORDER!! That got a cheer up here :)
- I was wondering how long it would take. Furtick mentions “Love Wins.”
- Driscoll: Lots of differences are over state borders, not national borders. That important to remember.
This session started out slow but it caught fire and hit some very, very important issues.
